Comments on: Where Did Everybody Go?

By: Dave Ayers

Dave Ayers — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 00:45:43 +0000

Very timely and helpful article, Mac. I’ve been wondering how we can keep in contact with and offer encouragement to all the pastors and their congregations in the Presbytery of Great Rivers who supported and encouraged us on our way out. We will try to keep them in the loop as we network with other churches in the NW/EPC.

Dave Ayers, Quincy, IL

By: Rev. Thomas E. Smith

Rev. Thomas E. Smith — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 15:58:03 +0000

Mac,

Yes, “defection in place” is a faithful option for those smaller congregations, such as the Presbyterian Chapel of the Lakes, who have opted for a “wait and see” approach as we anticipate a PJC ruling reversing the most recent AI. We believe mandatory constitutional standards cannot be “scruppled” and they represent the minimum threshold that must be supported if peace, unity and purity is to be sustained in our denomination.

Under the current climate of defacto “local rule” set loose by the PUP report, we are redirecting our mission funds to those causes and ministries that we can support in good conscience.

We pray for the day when we can heartily support the mission of the PC(USA) again without wincing.

By: Bruce Berry

Bruce Berry — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:13:54 +0000

I do hope that you have left the PCUSA because your article is clearly a violation of your ordination vows, if you were ever ordained in the PCUSA. It’s stuff like this that is creating the demonic mistrust in the PCUSA.

By: Renee

Renee — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:40:09 +0000

Yes, there is mistrust in the PCUSA. The larger question is how was it fostered. The core of the problem is the fact the the PCUSA does to have written essentials and commonly held beliefs to which all pastors, elders, and deacons agree. The hope for reform will rise and fall on our willingness to find agreement on the basic beliefs of Christianity.

By: Walter Estelle

Walter Estelle — Tue, 11 Dec 2007 17:48:02 +0000

While deeply hurt and concerned with many issues in PC(USA) I find some of your language attributed to the motives and hearts of Presbyteries to be likewise offensive and pajoritive: ie: “ransom” “fill their coffers” “intransigent” and others. There are real and important differences as well as theological divides within the church, but I do not believe there are many in our respective churches who have light hearts or heavy hands.

In encouraging the small church to leave you have not addressed the mission support that the Presbytery often gives to them, the oversight of pastoral relations, ordination, support of Commissioned Lay Pastors, assistance when there is a pastoral vacancy, etc. How is a church of 35 in a community 200 miles from the nearest EPC church going to be supported by them? I have no easy answers but any encouragement to disengage should be done with some real care for both sides (or all sides) of the transition.

By: Dianne Johnson

Dianne Johnson — Wed, 12 Dec 2007 18:26:32 +0000

Maybe the word “encouraging” would mean that there is always hope. “Suggesting” that a small church leave is different from encouraging them. I know this because I am a member of a small church who desires to leave the PCUSA and unite with the NWEPC. We need all of the encouraging we can get.

Our small congregation has been left adrift amid a sea of uncertainties, with no support from our presbytery. We have asked for help numerous times and they could offer us no hope and we faced closing our doors. Now we have finally experienced true hope and help, which came from outside of our denomination. God has not deserted us and it is our desire to be faithful to Him.

By: Hector Ramos

Hector Ramos — Sun, 23 Dec 2007 13:19:03 +0000

There are times when some church “leaders” lost the Christian way to live, work and belief, is when we have to show our faith, be faithfull and encorauge one an other to remain in the right path.
Hay veces en las cuales los “lideres” de la iglesia se pierden en dogmas y creencias falsos y se vuelven anatemas. Esto sucede nuevamente en la Iglesia, y es nuestra responzabilidad mostrar esas falsas creencias y alejarnos de esos falsos profetas. Dios nos pedira cuentas de nuestra fe.

By: Matt Ferguson

Matt Ferguson — Sat, 29 Dec 2007 15:36:59 +0000

First, a response to Bruce Berry. What are you talking about? Mac has laid out options any church has given to them by our (PCUSA) polity. Is it wrong to let them know what options they have? Is it wrong to do it out in the open? Has Mac misstated anything? Has he encouraged anyone to lie? By the way, I think all of those points are answered in the negative when you consider the legal papers put out in secret by our GA office! So who is fostering the demonic mistrust? Accusations like yours, trying to shut pastors up under the false charge that laying out ones options through our polity is going against ones ordination vows that is part of the problem. If a church wishes to leave the PCUSA there are things they can do. If they are considering the option there are steps that are perfectly legal in our polity to do. If they are going to stay, there are other options they can take. Why not let everyone know, right out in the open, what those options are? I would say the very same thing to any progressive church considering a move to the UCC. We in the PCUSA need to work on being such a great place we have to work on how we are going to accept all the churches who want to join us instead of trying to clutch onto those sensing a leading from God to leave. I am foolish enough to think God can do such a work in the PCUSA if we would be open to His working in our corporate life and stop chasing after the false gods prorgressive theology promotes and stop trying to appease our culture.

To MAC, I would add that the NWAC is open to more than just PCUSA churches and those in the new EPC New Wineskins Presbytery. Any church who is part of any other denomination and association who can take the steps you outlined above can come and be a part of what God is doing in NWAC.

God’s blessings to you,
Matt Ferguson

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